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ICSP Programming Connector

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bronx68
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2009/08/14 10:48:20 (permalink)
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ICSP Programming Connector

I have a PIC10F202 based pc board that I plan to reduce in size. The want to continue programming through the ICSP pins but the connector is too large. I would like to put the traces/pads on the pc board that could be picked up with some type of external adaptor that could interface to my ICD-2. Is there any third party device that can be purchase to accomplish this task?
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    leon_heller
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 10:52:03 (permalink)
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    I've used five pads on the edge of a PCB that allow a simple PCB adapter for the ICD 2 to be pressed onto them for programming. I soldered five pins to the pads for development. Spring-loaded pins could be used for volume manufacture.

    Leon

    Leon Heller
    G1HSM

    #2
    bronx68
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 11:12:27 (permalink)
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    Leon,
          Not sure what you mean by "pc adapter". Do you mean an edge connector? I also like the spring loaded idea. Do you know if we can buy something ready made for this type of application.
     
    Thanks,
    Bronx68
    #3
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 11:42:13 (permalink)
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    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 12:26:37 (permalink)
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    The_Programmer
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 12:40:57 (permalink)
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    There is also this connector, on the Microchip site, that doesn't need a connector on your PCB:-

    http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en541939
    #6
    Stefan Uhlemayr
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 14:14:53 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: The_Programmer

    There is also this connector, on the Microchip site, that doesn't need a connector on your PCB:-

    http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en541939
    Thanks for posting the link. I haven't known about this ready-to-use-solution, looks really pretty good!

    Greetings,
    Stefan
    #7
    leon_heller
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 14:35:33 (permalink)
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    It was new to me, as well. I think I'll get one.

    Leon

    Leon Heller
    G1HSM

    #8
    dchisholm
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 16:27:41 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: The_Programmer

    There is also this connector, on the Microchip site, that doesn't need a connector on your PCB:-

    http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en541939
    That cable looks like a fancy, and improved, version of what I've been doing for years.

    My hardware designs use a 2X3 pin header in 2mm pitch to provide an ICSP programming port.  It's more compact than 0.1" header pins, but still can be a challenge for the PWB layout.  (It's not just the acreage and mechanical positioning for the connector itself, but also routing the traces consistent with good EMC practice.)  During development and even pre-production the connector gets populated.  When the design is released for full production the connector itself can be omitted but the associated padstack remains on the board - which usually makes the production test engineer very happy.

    There's more info about the hardware I use in the old thread "What is the usual practice for burning firmware during mass production?".

    At US$26 each, that "Tag-Connect" cable is probably less costly than all the 2mm Pin Headers I've used (and discarded after the prototype had served its purpose).  I have to wonder about the lifetime of those tiny pogo pins in the Tag-Connect, though.  It doesn't bother me to build another 2mm-to-RJ12 jumper cable a couple times a year when the connections get flakey (though it DOES aggravate me when I pinch it in a desk drawer or pull it apart when a mechanically unstable prototype kludge gets knocked off the bench).  I don't know if I'd be as sanguine about buying a new Tag-Connect cable that often!

    Dale
    #9
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 17:43:53 (permalink)
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    In our CBL-0703-Pogo design, every single pogo-pin consist of a spring-loaded header and a solder-able base, both are gold-plated.
    Normally the header will wear off at about 1 million times of contact to the circuit board, and it is replaceable, by simply pull it out of the base socket and insert a brand-new one.
    So, with the nominal 1 million contact performance and the replaceable design, basically no worry even for heavy usages.

    Pogo Header 1 (Tip is replaceable, programming wire can be soldered to gold-plated base):



    Pogo Header 2 (Tip is replaceable, programming wire can be soldered to gold-plated base):
    post edited by FunnyNYPD - 2009/08/14 17:52:04
    #10
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 17:55:09 (permalink)
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    Some info on CBL-0703-Pogo
    Pin out when BB0703/BB0703+ is connected:


    ICD2 pinout and Pogo Pin definition when a ICD2 is connected:



    ICD3 pinout and pogo pin definition when a ICD3 is connected:



    For more info, please visit:
    http://augroups.blogspot.com/2009/01/cbl-0703-pogo.html
    #11
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 18:12:37 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: dchisholm
    My hardware designs use a 2X3 pin header in 2mm pitch to provide an ICSP programming port.  It's more compact than 0.1" header pins, but still can be a challenge for the PCB layout.  (It's not just the acreage and mechanical positioning for the connector itself, but also routing the traces consistent with good EMC practice.)


    Indeed, the 0.100 inch pictch is relatively easy to handle, especially some of the board need large Vdd current. And you can modify a bit based on the following recommendation to make the space between pads large enough to allow some 10mil signal wire goes between the pads. Now there are about 0.54mm left between pads, it shouldn't be a large issue to increase the space to about 0.8mm (about 31 mil, so a 10 mil width wire should be able to pass through the space without violate the PCB design rules.).

    Plus, if you don't mind of the self-alignment performance (the via hole and the ball header on pogo pins provide excellent self-alignment performance), and your mechanical fixture can secure the position accurate enough, only one side of the pads can be used instead the double side vias show here.
    post edited by FunnyNYPD - 2009/08/15 14:31:05
    #12
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 18:18:42 (permalink)
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    I have to wonder about the lifetime of those tiny pogo pins in the Tag-Connect, though.


    The pogo pins in our design qualified up to 500K~1M contacts, and the tip is replaceable. We have used it in our product line, and no apparent wear-out has reached yet. The gold-plating provides excellent electric contacts.
    #13
    Stefan Uhlemayr
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/14 23:38:20 (permalink)
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    Well, the big advantage I see in the TC2030-MCP is the protection against reverse-connecting, and this provided at pretty small place. And together with the snapping mechanics it gives nearly the same advantages as using a RJ11-connector (this connector is in a lot of cases not possible to use, just because of size-issues) on the board. And this without any additional cost for the target-board! Smile

    Greetings,
    Stefan
    #14
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/15 04:09:46 (permalink)
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    The following pads design is also compatible with PK2/PK3 for prototype development:
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    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/15 04:34:52 (permalink)
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    This is interesting after the discussion and some calculation is done:

    A. Total PCB area consumed:
    1. Au design: 14.7mm L x 2mm w = 29.4 mm2
    2. TC2030-MCP: 8.40486mm L x 7.4549mm W = 62.657 mm2 (Actual size shown on recommended pads are 0.3309"L x 0.2935"W)

    Au design only consumes 46% percent of the total PCB area TC2030-MCP used. And there is still potential for user to shrink the pads OD to about 1.5mm which will further reduce the PCB area used (22.05mm2, 35% of total PCB used by TC2030-MCP) and still be compatible with PK2, PK3 programmers. Not only that, our design makes it easier to route PCB due to the large space between pads. Now, no wonder why some people start to using our design for production after using TC2030-MCP for prototype. And some "gang programmer" manufacturer start to recommend our pogo-pin cable design to their mass product customers. grin

    B. Total PCB hole drilled:
    1. Au Design: 6 max. 0 hole drilled on PCB (one side pads only) is possible.
    2. TC2030-MCP: 13 max,

    Another benefit of using Au design is: our pogo-pin cable design guarantees 3A max continuous current to target board.

    Other benefits:
    0. Gold-plated header and base secure good electric contact
    1. Pogo pin endurance: 500K-1M nominal contact, long durability for mass production
    2. Pogo-pin header is replaceable
    4. Low cost and easy to use
    post edited by FunnyNYPD - 2009/08/15 04:47:32
    #16
    Stefan Uhlemayr
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/15 11:57:08 (permalink)
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    Hi Funny,

    first, I don't think that it is necessary to post one and the same picture three times into the same thread. Sorry, I couldn't resist to mention this, but it's a little bit annoying...[&:]

    Second, I can understand your arguments as a saleman for your product, but your part is NOT protected against reverse connecting, which could cause serious problems for the target, if the one, who is doing the programming, makes a mistake (of course, this will never happen, or...grin).

    Third, if you compare the required space and drillings for the pcb, you may do the comparison better with the TC2030-MCP-NL (missing snap-in-legs), as your adapter doesn't snap in, too. This would be a little bit more comparable, or? By the way, the space required for the TC2030-MCP-NL is pretty small (0.2374" x 0.1174").wink

    Well, I'm not doing any advertising, but I want to have a fair comparison,Smile
    Stefan
    #17
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/15 14:39:36 (permalink)
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    Hi, Stefan,
    Welcome to the comment, I have fixed the staff you complained about. You inputs are highly appreciated.grin
    Second, I can understand your arguments as a saleman for your product, but your part is NOT protected against reverse connecting, which could cause serious problems for the target, if the one, who is doing the programming, makes a mistake (of course, this will never happen, or...grin).


    Actually, It is bullet proof by Microchip ICSP arrangement (which is supported by ICD2/3, PK2/3, RealICE, and many 3rd party gang programmers, etc.):
    Pin 1 to pin 6: Vpp, Vdd, Gnd, PGD, PGC NC (Not connected),

    When you put it reverse, the Vpp is connected with NA, which will not fire anything. I have been used this design for a few years, and it hasn't lead to any trouble yet. Also All our cable design has a pin 1 mark for Vpp (The blue one shows the mark on its picture, the pin-1 mark for the black one is on the other side which isn't shown on any picture on this forum, I am worried about posting one more picture will get you complain again.grin)
    post edited by FunnyNYPD - 2009/08/15 15:21:51
    #18
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/15 15:05:39 (permalink)
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    Third, if you compare the required space and drillings for the pcb, you may do the comparison better with the TC2030-MCP-NL (missing snap-in-legs), as your adapter doesn't snap in, too. This would be a little bit more comparable, or? By the way, the space required for the TC2030-MCP-NL is pretty small (0.2374" x 0.1174").


    I got no issue to make it smaller, and I would be more than happy if only the smaller pins can carry enough Vdd current for the target boards.

    Larger pogo pin size also means longer durability for assembly-line, it is 500K~1M cycles vs. 100K cycles durability.

    One of our goal is helping people who using PK2 and PK3 doing their prototype and using gang programmer or production programmer for their assembly line, on this situation, our pogo cable is the best. There is zero additional cost for products in high volume and no hardware change is needed with our pogo cable. It is a bargain if you count the price too.
    #19
    FunnyNYPD
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    RE: ICSP Programming Connector 2009/08/15 15:13:12 (permalink)
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    Not only the pogo header is replaceable after 500K~1M cycles, some of our future product will also provide the freedom for the end users to modify the pin definition by themselves. And this will make our product not only suite the purpose to program most of the Microchip PIC, but also covers some of the ATMEL MCU chips which sometime only require 6 programming signal too.

    Sorry Stefan, I have to post this picture one more time to help people understanding what I am talking about:



    With the above pogo header, basically end user can change the 6 pin signal definition to its own meaning and purpose. That's a design freedom you won't get from anywhere else.
    #20
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