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PIC16F88 problem

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Toley
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2007/12/20 07:22:39 (permalink)
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PIC16F88 problem

I have 10 PicKit2 programmers (I'm in a school) they all use V2.40 with latest firmware. I also have a PicStart Plus programmer with a PUM module, also with the latest firmware. They all have the same problem with PIC16F88. When they are new I'm able to program them but as soon as I erase the device, I'm getting programming error. I have report this error before but no one seems to know the problem. I gave up since then and change the device for a PIC16F690 this meant modify all my labs etc... many hours of labour. Now I have a student who have a project with a PIC16F88 I try to program it and I found the same error again. Is there a solution???
#1

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    paulbergsman
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/20 11:50:08 (permalink)
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    Hello;

    I always program at 5 volts.  Some USB hubs, even if they have there own power supply, do not deliver 5 volts.
    So, try plugging your PICkit2's USB cable directly into the PC's USB socket.

    Also, be sure that nothing in your circuit is loading the PICkit2's programming pins.


    Paul Bergsman, N3PSO


    For the most cost effective PIC prototyping board around:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzes94mj/picprototypingboard
    #2
    0815fox
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/20 12:16:00 (permalink)
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    You could also power your device with your own power supply by simply not connecting the Vdd line to your programmer and connecting it instead to 5V power supply.

    *******************************
    UR 0815fox.
    #3
    PICkit2Dev
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/20 13:56:59 (permalink)
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    These are all great suggestions, except that if you power it with your own supply you should still connect the PICkit 2 VDD line.  I would also add the following:
     
    3) ensure the PGM pin (pin 9) is not pulled high by the circuit or is not left floating - use a resistor of 10K or less to ground it in your programming jig/circuit.
     
    4) If the part has code that uses the Timer1 oscillator this can interfere with programming.  In the PICkit 2 software, select Tools > Use VPP 1st Program Entry (so it is checked) and try programming them this way.  Note - you will need to ensure they are powered from the PICkit 2 unit VDD for this to work.
    #4
    Toley
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/20 14:17:40 (permalink)
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    I've already try all of those tip but nothing work. You can see another thread I wrote last year and I'm still at the same point with new versions of the PicKit2 software.

    http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=192202&mpage=1&key=&#192202

    PGM is pull to Gnd with a 10K res. The Vpp 1st Program Entry has been test and it works as long as don't erase the device.
    #5
    paulbergsman
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/20 15:19:18 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: Toley

    I've already try all of those tip but nothing work. You can see another thread I wrote last year and I'm still at the same point with new versions of the PicKit2 software.

    http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=192202&mpage=1&key=&#192202

    PGM is pull to Gnd with a 10K res. The Vpp 1st Program Entry has been test and it works as long as don't erase the device.


    Have you tried connecting a 5 volt supply to your target PIC?


    Paul Bergsman, N3PSO


    For the most cost effective PIC prototyping board around:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzes94mj/picprototypingboard
    #6
    PICkit2Dev
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/20 21:06:58 (permalink)
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    Have you tried connecting a 5 volt supply to your target PIC?

     
    Yes, please try that.  Also, can you measure the VDD output voltage of the PICkit 2? 
     
    So, you only see the problem when you use the ERASE function?  This is strange because the same erase procedure is done when programming a part.  I haven't been able to replicate the problem, and have not heard of anyone else having a similar issue.
     
    Where are you located?  Would it be possible for you to send me one of your PIC16F88 devices that has the problem?
    #7
    Toley
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/21 07:04:55 (permalink)
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    I said I've try all of those things. I have a board with an external 5 volts supply I also try with a PICSTART PLUS programmer that have an external power supply. Those 16F88 can only be programmed 1 time. Please PICkit2Dev send me you adress an I will ship you some of those that have been programmed 1 time and are not even recognised by the programmer now! You will see I'm not crazy.

    I'm in Canada and I've bought them at Digi-key last year.

    Sorry to be rude but this problem get me very frustrated. The result is that my class laboratories didn't work and I have unsatisfied students. I had to modify all the labs and schematics for using the 16F690 who work perfectly.

    Thanks for your collaboration.
    #8
    PICkit2Dev
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/21 10:23:49 (permalink)
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    Toley,
     
    I don't think you are crazy, and I share your frustration as I'd like to help but don't know what the issue could be.
     
    Please do send me some parts.  Send them to
     
    Walter Kicinski
    Microchip Technology Inc.
    16200 Addison Rd
    Suite 255
    Addison, TX  75001
    USA
     
    You may also use the "email" button on the lower left of this post to email me any additional information.  I hope we can get this resolved.
    #9
    xiaofan
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2007/12/21 18:24:41 (permalink)
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    Could you post your config settings or better the hex file?
     
    Maybe you want to read the following document to see if it helps.
    http://techtrain.microchip.com/masters2005/downloads/classes/914PRG.pdf
     
     
    #10
    Futterama
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/03 16:16:56 (permalink)
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    Hello,

    I have a similar problem. My problem is not when erasing, but when programming the PIC16F88.

    Sometimes I can program the device, but suddenly I cannot (config verification error, or programming at address 0x000000 failed). If I try to program the device several times, perhaps I'm lucky to get it done without errors.

    My devices are quite old, perhaps it's a problem with older devices?


    Regards,
    Futterama
    #11
    PICkit2Dev
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 09:19:51 (permalink)
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    Futterama,
     
    It would be extremely helpful if you could send me one or two of your problem 16F88 parts (at the address in the above post) that I could used to troubleshoot this problem.  I never did receive any from Toley.
     
    Thanks.
    #12
    Futterama
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 13:18:36 (permalink)
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    I live in Denmark (Scandanavia, Europe) and I have never sent ordinary postal mail to the US, but if it isn't very expensive, I'll give it a try, but I guess it will take a few weeks for the devices to arrive.
    #13
    Futterama
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 14:11:50 (permalink)
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    Now I have been trying to program all the DIP devices I have (15pcs) and one SOIC device and they all produced errors.

    7 of them programmed fine once. At the next programming, ithey failed with either "programming at address 0x000000 failed", "verification of configuration failed" or even "No device detected - Unsupported Part (ID = 3FE0)".

    7 produced errors at first programming attempt. The remaining 2 were the first 2 I used, so I can't remember whether they failed at first programming attempt.

    I really can't use any of those devices, so I might as well send them all to you. Totally, I have 15 DIP and 5 SOIC. I'll send the 15 DIPs to you.
    #14
    Olin Lathrop
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 14:33:44 (permalink)
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    I really can't use any of those devices, so I might as well send them all to you. Totally, I have 15 DIP and 5 SOIC. I'll send the 15 DIPs to you.

    I'm having a hard time believing that all your devices are dead unless your programmer is blown and putting high voltages on them or something.  The first thing to do is to verify the voltages produced by the programmer.  Vdd should be 4.5-5.5V, Vpp needs to be in the 9.0-13.5V range, and the PGD and PGC lines should be between ground and whatever Vdd is at the time.
     
    If that all looks good, check the usual things.  Make sure you have a good bypass cap accross the PIC Vdd to Vss pins right at the PIC, not at the programmer end of the cable.  Make sure PGM is held low during programming.
     
    What kind of jig do you have that connects these chips to the programmer?  Is it powered or unpowered?
    #15
    Futterama
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 14:48:56 (permalink)
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    VDD is 5.0V, VPP is 12.7V.

    I can't even test PGD and PGC lines as the programmer won't even find the device now.

    PICkit2 is the power source, see the attached picture for setup details.

    I have no problems programming PIC18F2550, PIC12F629 and PIC10F206.


    post edited by Futterama - 2008/01/04 14:50:15

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    Olin Lathrop
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 15:09:07 (permalink)
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    I can't even test PGD and PGC lines as the programmer won't even find the device now.

    Sure you can.  It still must be wiggling them to try to find the device, even if it doesn't eventually think there is one out there.
     
    see the attached picture for setup details.

    That's not a very clear picture.  I can't even tell which end is pin 1.  It looks like the programmer lines are hooked up right if pin 1 is at the top end in the picture.  I also can't see what kind of cap you have, and exactly which holes the two gray wires on the left are plugged into.  I don't like using extra wires to connect the cap.  Since it can plug directly into the breadboard, plug it in right accross the PIC power pins.  Make sure you are using a 100nF to 1uF or so ceramic cap plugged in right accross the PIC power pins, and make sure pin 1 is in the right end. That should leave a single jumper wire between Vss and PGM.  If that still doesn't work, try putting about 47pF caps on both PGC and PGD to Vss at the PIC.  If that doesn't work and PGC and PGD look like they're switching between the right voltages, then I don't know what else to suggest.
    #17
    Futterama
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 15:13:30 (permalink)
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    Okay, I'm confused.

    Setting the PICkit2 VDD voltage level to 2.5V before programming, helps. Setting it back to 5.0V and the programming fails.

    The PIC16F88 shouldn't even be able to be programmed at 2.5V and with PGM connected to GND, the PICkit2 shouldn't be able to use LVP. Or am I mistaken, the PIC16F88 Flash Memory Programming Specification says:

    "The first method, called
    Low-Voltage ICSPTM (LVP for short), applies VDD to
    MCLR and uses the I/O pin RB3 to enter Programming
    mode. When RB3 is driven to VDD from ground, the
    PIC16F87/88 device enters Programming mode."

    And with a wire connection from RB3 to GND, it shouldn't be able to enter low voltage programming mode.

    Setting the VDD to 3.5V and it fails. At 3.4V it will program without error.

    What is going on?
    #18
    PICkit2Dev
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 15:23:15 (permalink)
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    Have you tried selecting "Use VPP First Program Entry" on these parts?  What you are describing with the 2.5V Volt issue sounds just like the problem this is intended to solve.
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    Futterama
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    RE: PIC16F88 problem 2008/01/04 15:26:03 (permalink)
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    The pins on my 100nF cap can't reach across the PIC. I only got polyester and aluminum electrolytic capacitors.

    I've tried with a 1µF poly cap soldered to the VDD-VSS pins as shown in this more clear picture.

    Attached Image(s)

    #20
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