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eagle1
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2020/12/07 04:12:57 (permalink)
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[SOLVED] design a lab development board for PIC16F877A

Hi,
 
We have a set of development boards that we did locally in our organization for training, but this design has come after couple years of use with problems.
 
So, we are thinking of designing a new one.
My first thought of what I want to include in 3 main categories: Power type, programming type and components to put in the development board.
 
1. Power: in our lab we use a variable bench power supply, but the problem with this is that someone may change the voltage to a higher one and destroy the PICkit, the mcu or anything else. I tried a 5V/2A adapter, worked for my set in my home, but didn't work with the one in our lab ! I don't know why.
 
In power regard, I can choose different routes:
A) Use higher voltage adapter, and put a LDO chip in the dev board.
B) Continue with the lab bench variable PSU and use a combination of OPV and LDO chips.
 
2. Programming: I noticed searching for development boards on Aliexpress, that there's a type of programming using JTAG.
So now, which is best using PICkit3 or a JTAG ?
 
3. Components to put in the development board:
I'm thinking of:
area with slots to connect lcd1602 or lcd12864
7-seg 4 digits with 4 transistors and max7219 or
lm35 sensor or dh11
push buttons
leds from 4-8 leds max and has a switch to disconnect them when we don't need them
a relay with freewheel diode
custom slots for spi, i2c for certain usual or specific modules; like, Bluetooth, rtc, io expander; like, sensor shield
custom slots for other modules that don't use communication protocol; like, ir, relay, servo motor, stepper motor .. etc.
 
 
My first question I want to start with is what to decide about power and programming concerns ? then the components are left for later discussion for God's will.
post edited by eagle1 - 2020/12/30 17:25:31
#1
ric
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 04:19:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eagle1 2020/12/07 09:10:31
+5 (5)
eagle1
1. Power: in our lab we use a variable bench power supply, but the problem with this is that someone may change the voltage to a higher one and destroy the PICkit, the mcu or anything else. I tried a 5V/2A adapter, worked for my set in my home, but didn't work with the one in our lab ! I don't know why.

Why not just use a standard 5V USB power supply. They are dirt cheap and available everywhere.
 

2. Programming: I noticed searching for development boards on Aliexpress, that there's a type of programming using JTAG.
So now, which is best using PICkit3 or a JTAG ?

You can't use JTAG with any PIC16F chips.
 

3. Components to put in the development board:

Purely depends upon what you want to demonstrate.
 
I would strongly recommend you move up from the ancient PIC16F877A though.
Even one of the PIC16F1xxx chip would be much easier to work with.

I also post at: PicForum
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#2
eagle1
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 07:08:58 (permalink)
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ric
Why not just use a standard 5V USB power supply. They are dirt cheap and available everywhere.

I used this one:
 
 
but I don't know, it didn't work with me, maybe I have to test that again and check more than one board. Because 5V/2A is plenty for the board.
 

You can't use JTAG with any PIC16F chips.

OK, then the only solution is the PICkit3 and we have the required quantity but now the main goal is to maintain them as possible, and main problem that we loose a PICkit3 is because of the bench variable power supply, I don't know who would fry one as I'm not aware of in the lab time.
A 5V adapter would be a very safe approach. Because it's fixed.
 

Purely depends upon what you want to demonstrate.

Yeah, during a full semester of 16 actual training weeks. I start with blink example, then move to knight rider and do some LED effect functions.
Then start with lcd1602 + lm35 which take like 3-4 weeks so they understand.
 
I have a simple experience training the microcontroller course. Also I have no much clear goal of whether go to complex examples and provide ready libraries or start with the basics of setting the TRIS, PORT registers … etc.
 
I would strongly recommend you move up from the ancient PIC16F877A though.
Even one of the PIC16F1xxx chip would be much easier to work with.


The problem is that in the department warehouse there is a lot of PIC16F877A in stock.
So we can take advantage of it and leave the board suitable for future chip upgrade like PIC18F46k22. But anyway PIC16F877A is pretty enough for microcontroller course in diploma program.
#3
NKurzman
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 08:34:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eagle1 2020/12/07 09:10:25
+2 (2)
If you’re concerned about the kids threes you may want to look into the SNAP programmer, it’s fairly cheap but will not work with the PIC16F877A.
Yes that old chip will work, but you’ll be teaching things that a person wouldn’t necessarily use anymore.
As far as power you have a lot of choices.
You can put a linear or switching regulator on the input to prevent blowups. Or you could put a Zener diode and a polyfuse.
The other suggestion given to you was to basically use a cell phone charger.
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eagle1
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 09:25:20 (permalink)
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NKurzman
If you’re concerned about the kids threes you may want to look into the SNAP programmer, it’s fairly cheap but will not work with the PIC16F877A.

well then we already have PICkit3, but I'm now thinking of putting it in a constant location on the other side of the board and glue it so no one can remove it and hence maintaining a stable connection to the computer.

Yes that old chip will work, but you’ll be teaching things that a person wouldn’t necessarily use anymore.

Yes but basically using any microcontroller would be enough, because it would require the trainees a lot of time and couple years to know that they need something that is more powerful, faster and equipped with more units. We haven't even used a SPI or I2C communication protocol. Didn't do bit bang stuff, denouncing input, use functions control flags … etc. There is a lot to learn. It's just one microcontroller course in the whole diploma, the trainees reach the end of the semester knowing something that is called a microcontroller.

You can put a linear or switching regulator on the input to prevent blowups.

we have a lot of lm7805 in stock for other courses, I can use it for this board but the problem is that it's already designed, printed and soldered, I can't do much now except powering it from a constant power source.
 
 
Or you could put a Zener diode and a polyfuse.

There's a Zener but it helps with opposite voltage polarity problems, it doesn't help if someone increased the input voltage. I found a chip called OVP that is similar to LDO chip but it can take upto 80V on the input and still maintaining 5V for the board. I like that idea. 

The other suggestion given to you was to basically use a cell phone charger.

I'm still trying the 5V adapter, hoping it serve the board well because it would save us a lot of hassle of protecting the board from over voltage problems.
#5
Mysil
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 09:44:35 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Hi,
 
There is something unconventional about the power adapter in picture shown in message #3 .
Barrel connectors with Yellow tip are specified in a EIAJ standard that specify connectors for different voltage levels.
DC connector with 2.5 mm outside diameter, and 0.7 mm inside is for voltage 3.15 V or lower! 
The corresponding connector for voltage between  3.15 V and 6.3 V is 4.2 mm OD and 1.7 mm ID.
 
Apart from this, Coaxial connectors for DC power supply, is a confusing mess, with large number of variations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector 
 
The most successful attempt recently, to specify a connector for DC supply ,
is a  USB power adapter, and a cable with a USB Micro-B plug.
 
    Mysil
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Kris
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 10:50:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eagle1 2020/12/07 11:13:16
+2 (2)
I have tried a number of commercially available boards. Personally speaking I prefer boards that offer a choice of power options. This provides greater versitility to the end user. I power most of my boards and my programmers simultaneously from my computer using USB PORTS and this solution works well for me. it may simplify things to. if the children are using computers to program them with USB ports, then I guess It makes sense as a solution?
 
The which PIC question? I understand the argument for the 16f877a, it is my prefered processor, put simply there is a vast amount of information out there for this processor when things go wrong. I also take the point that this is now an old chip. One possible solution is to use a number of zif sockets with different pin counts. This would allow a greater diversity of MCU's to be used, increasing longevity and usefulness of the board. It could also demostrate some of the more modern MCU's and their capabilities, capturing the minds of future engineers.
 
Another feature you may wish to consider? A prototyping area, such as a breadboard. Again it opens up the avenue of greater diversity of experiment and future proofing, all in one self contained unit.
 
One thing you have omitted from your post is whether you intend to make this board commercially available to your students and or the rest of the world.
 
Is there not a commercially available development board? The PIC-EK board has a number of solutions to your requirements. it has multi IC sockets for different MCU's and its full of other features.
 
PIC Development Board PIC-EK for DIP4/8/14/18/20/28/40 PIC microcontrollers | eBay
 
Have you considered the boards that are used in industry for development, as a solution. If the kids are educated using boards that are common in industry then surely that is advantageous to them. They can simply hit the ground running.
 
I hope my experience as a hobbyist and learner of MCU's is of use.
Best regards,
Kris
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eagle1
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 11:10:46 (permalink)
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Mysil
Hi,
 
There is something unconventional about the power adapter in picture shown in message #3 .
Barrel connectors with Yellow tip are specified in a EIAJ standard that specify connectors for different voltage levels.

I'm sorry I posted the wrong one, it's actually this one:

 
 
Apart from this, Coaxial connectors for DC power supply, is a confusing mess, with large number of variations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector 
 
The most successful attempt recently, to specify a connector for DC supply ,
is a USB power adapter, and a cable with a USB Micro-B plug.

do you mean that this:

 
is better than this:

 
?
#8
eagle1
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 11:10:46 (permalink)
0
duplicate reply ..
post edited by eagle1 - 2020/12/07 11:11:51
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davea
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 12:14:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eagle1 2020/12/07 13:54:56
0 (2)
I would use a USB connector 
the other types tend to ware out
#10
ric
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 12:20:41 (permalink)
+2 (2)
And 2A is enough to blow chips up easily. A smaller unit (say 500mA) should be plenty for this.
 

I also post at: PicForum
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NEW USERS: Posting images, links and code - workaround for restrictions.
To get a useful answer, always state which PIC you are using!
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Kris
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 12:36:41 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Sorry I missed out the programming information.
 
To use a library?
There are pros and cons to this. Personally speaking I don't like using someones elses libraries. The main reason being your teaching somebody how to use somebody elses programming. Using this method has some advantages, faster solution, quicker to market for any products, why reinvent the wheel. This method simply doesn't teach the inner workings of the controller. They often skip over the necessary steps, in the correct order, in which tasks must be done to use a peripheral. Once an understanding of how an MCU works. Then I see no reason why a library can't be used, as long the background programming is understood.
 
which language?
As an older gentleman and experience of PICs/MCU's to that of a hobbist. All the electronics books that I have read that include an MCU section. Often use asm or assembly. Again there are many examples available online. My experience is that assembly gives a much greater understanding, which is crucial when beginning with mcu's. There are then many other higher level languages such a C, Basic, Pascal, there are also a number of gui packages to consider too.
 
Then there is the importance of compilers. For example there are different compilers for the C language, depending on which flavour of C you are using. Not to mention which mcu you are using, as this can also be a factor in choosing a compiler. (Also cost is important)
 
So I guess what I'm trying to say is alot will depend on available time, but also what the course is trying to teach.
 
For a beginners course, one might suggest starting with assembly. I think this option would give a greater understanding of the internal operation of the mcu. Towards the end of the course any tutor might demonstrate an application that is mathematically intense. (calculations that involve decimals for arguements sake and then a demonstration of a high level language such as C and how much simpler it is). You could even do it as a activity to set students some time to research other languages and their pros and cons, and which they think is better.
 
For higher level courses. Whatever the expertise of the tutor.
 
I have recently started using C and XC8 as my language. I think C is now commonly used and there is a whole load of resouces online to help.
 
My recommendation is assembly and C. As a hobbyist it comes down to personal choice, for a professional it is a matter of what is relevant to industry.
 
Hope my ramblings haven't muddied the waters to much.
Best regards,
Kris
#12
eagle1
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 14:18:41 (permalink)
+1 (1)
molk7796
I have tried a number of commercially available boards. Personally speaking I prefer boards that offer a choice of power options.

absolutely ! and thanks for empowering this idea for me, like Arduino board, there are 3 ways to power the board.
through the usb, Vin pin and the power jack. I really should take this step into design consideration.
 
First this is power jack input with the NCP1117 LDO

 
providing the 3.3v in the board with the lm117 would be I guess from the output of the 5v ldo.
 
 
The which PIC question? I understand the argument for the 16f877a, it is my prefered processor, put simply there is a vast amount of information out there for this processor when things go wrong.
yes, anyway it's more than enough for the course we work in. Because semester ends and we haven't even covered like 10% of this chip features/skils .. etc. 
 
 
I also take the point that this is now an old chip. One possible solution is to use a number of zif sockets with different pin counts.
there's no need for this step, because 40-pin is large enough for anything we might need and if we consider an upgrade a PIC18F4550 or PIC18F46k22 would be the target.
 
Another feature you may wish to consider? A prototyping area, such as a breadboard. Again it opens up the avenue of greater diversity of experiment and future proofing, all in one self contained unit.
yep a small one should be nice
 
One thing you have omitted from your post is whether you intend to make this board commercially available to your students and or the rest of the world.

it's for a college microcontroller course and funded by the department.
 
Is there not a commercially available development board? The PIC-EK board has a number of solutions to your requirements. it has multi IC sockets for different MCU's and its full of other features.
 
PIC Development Board PIC-EK for DIP4/8/14/18/20/28/40 PIC microcontrollers | eBay

 
thank you so much for this link, this would be the ultimate design I can think of, nothing more I really need .. a very nice design, everything is bordered with clear white lines.
This is my target design ! Thanks man ..
 
 
Have you considered the boards that are used in industry for development, as a solution. If the kids are educated using boards that are common in industry then surely that is advantageous to them. They can simply hit the ground running.

like what ? can you provide me with an example ?
 
#13
Mysil
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 15:02:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eagle1 2020/12/07 16:10:05
+3 (3)
Hi,
 
I somehow want to put a question to the idea of developing a new development board for
introductory or fundamental training of engineering students.
Unless you have hardware production available,
I would rather suggest to buy or require the students attending the course to buy the same ready-made development board.
My suggestion would be: Microchip Curiosity DM164137
It is a reasonably priced development board for use with PIC16... or PIC18... 
microcontrollers in 8-pin, 14-pin and 20-pin packages.
The board is delivered with a recent PIC16  microcontroller.
The board have been made in some different hardware revisions,
and I am not quite sure what model microcontroller is delivered with the current revision.
https://www.microchip.com/DevelopmentTools/ProductDetails/DM164137
 
The board have 2 double rows of socket headers with access to all pins of the microcontroller.
If you want to develop some hardware, then it would be possible to make a shield board for some of the lessons.
 
The board have  builtin programmer and debugger, in a separate microcontroller on the board.
The board is normally powered thru the same USB cable that is used for programming and debugging.
 
The cost of the board is comparable to a small textbook for any other course.
The rest of what is needed is free to download from Microchip Website:
MPLAB X Integrated Development Environment, and XC8 C programming language Compiler.
This does however require students to have access to a capable PC computer.
 
The board described above, is also called Curiosity LPC board, for 'Low Pin Count'.
 
If you really want to work with 40-pin devices,
there is also Curiosity High Pin Count (HPC) board: DM164136
https://www.microchip.com/developmenttools/ProductDetails/DM164136
 
It still cannot program your stock of PIC16F877A devices.
For that, you still need PICkit 3 or PICkit 4 programmer / debugger tool.
 
    Mysil
#14
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 15:11:41 (permalink)
+2 (2)
Hi,
with HPC curiosity  ( DM164136 ), you can use PIC16F18877 which is the successor of PIC16F877A.
It's easy to remember as the last 3 digits are the same Smile: Smile. Pickit3 is not needed as it embeds the debug on the board.
No power supply needed either as it is powered from the USB cable/
Once significant advantage is that recent PIC16 / PIC18 are supported by MCC (graphical code generator) , which is not and will not be the case of the old PICs
You can expand the Curiosity boards with hundreds of sensors / actuators / RF modules from Mikroelektronika which enable lots of projects (communication, ...)
Regards

For support make sure to check first here : http://microchipdeveloper.com
There are hundreds of PIC, AVR, SAM...which one do YOU use ?
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 17:31:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eagle1 2020/12/07 19:08:05
0
Have you considered the boards that are used in industry for development, as a solution. If the kids are educated using boards that are common in industry then surely that is advantageous to them. They can simply hit the ground running.

like what ? can you provide me with an example ?
 


 
I don't feel I'm the best person to answer this, as I dont work in the industry. I am only a hobyist.
 
Don't dismiss the idea of a commercially obtained board. This comes with certain advantages over a custom in house board. You get a product guarantee, and some level of customer technical support, especially were problems arise. Commercial options are rigorously tested to ensure they meet necessary safety standards, but also that they are fit for purpose. If a student wanted to experiment outside of class then it would make sense to have the option of buying the same board. A lot easier if it is commercially available.
 
The most crucial advice, should be to do enough research to make the best choice for the establishment and the students. Check the validity of your research with a number of sources.  Checking other MCU forums and comparing advice. (I have to say that my experience is that 'this' forum and its users have always given me sound advice.) check forums with no loyalties or affiliations to certain products.
 
Some informaion about the course might be of benefit, then people can give better detailed advice, thats right for that situation.  It might help contributers if we knew: Is this just a module inside a wider electronics course? At what level the course is aimed? What type of establishment you are? What are the fundamentals in the syllabus? Length of course?
 
Make contact with other training establishments see what they use and how they rate them compared to other products?
 
I hope this helps a little more.
Best Regards,
Kris
#16
NorthGuy
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 18:05:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eagle1 2020/12/07 18:59:36
+3 (3)
New chips, like PIC16F1xxx or PIC16F1xxxx are more reliable (you will kill less), better organized, and have better debugging capabilities. They also have several problems sorted out (such as LATx registers). Otherwise, they're similar to the old ones enough, so that it won't take much effort to port your course to them.
#17
ric
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 18:10:07 (permalink)
+2 (2)
NorthGuy
....
Otherwise, they're similar to the old ones enough, so that it won't take much effort to port your course to them.

Particularly if your example source code correctly used BANKSEL macros to select banks, rather than twiddling RP0/RP1 bits directly!
 

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NEW USERS: Posting images, links and code - workaround for restrictions.
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davea
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 18:52:08 (permalink)
+2 (2)
microchip direct has 15% off coupon code EOY2020DT for most Curiosity Development Boards
My suggestion would be: Microchip Curiosity DM164137

DM164137 @ $22.94 USD
or DM164136 @ $33.99 USD
Curiosity includes an integrated programmer/debugger, and requires no additional hardware to get started.

#19
eagle1
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Re: design a lab development board for PIC16F877A 2020/12/07 18:54:07 (permalink)
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Mysil
I somehow want to put a question to the idea of developing a new development board for
introductory or fundamental training of engineering students.

 
We already have one that has been designed in our department, pcb manufactured in china and soldered in our college labs. The choose/develop for development boards isn't entirely my decision, it's the department, and I even consider to be a new trainer to them, I just moved here like 4 years ago, and when I moved to this college, they didn't have any development board for training, so I used breadboards and there's a lot of PIC16F877A in stock but not much, they could be like not more than 200 max. So as I was working with this setup, connecting/disconnecting each lab, this takes a lot of lab time and there isn't much time left for programming, I talked with department about this problem and they started the current development board idea and that improved my work and solved a lot of problems.
 
 
I would rather suggest to buy or require the students attending the course to buy the same ready-made development board.
that's a nice idea actually but the situation here is a bit not that easy, to my experience in this college, average students have low computer skills, and don't have one in their home, and maybe don't care about computers.
 
The main goal here is that my job would be much more easier to deal with.
 
This is our current setup:
 
 
 

 
My suggestion would be: Microchip Curiosity DM164137
It is a reasonably priced development board

 
This is also not my call, the cost of the Curiosity board is $26, for like 20 of these, the total would be much more compared with custom ones. Because we already have dev boards we need a better design, and we only have to desolder the current components and put them in the new boards + there are stock components in the dep. warehouse.
 
Also this board is a bit for professionals, could be for beginners but experienced ones.
The dev boards that come with lcd, sensors, buttoms … etc, are better than this one.
#20
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