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Blue_Key
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2019/10/10 05:55:50 (permalink)
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PIC10F devices dies

I'm facing an issue with PIC10f200 devices.
 
During production, about 5% of those devices die. 
 
I've been working many years with dspic33, pic24 and pic32 and never had such issues.
 
Is the 10F family more sensitive to ESD or soldering temperature profile than the other?
 
Should the programming connector have ESD protection? (programmed with pickit3 and 4).
 
The pic is powered at 3.3V.
 
Thanks
#1

32 Replies Related Threads

    acharnley
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/10/10 06:54:46 (permalink)
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    During production or during programming for production?

    I used this chip on my last design, programmed 1,000's with no issues.

    I'd have to check the datasheet but this chip was really basic and probably didn't have ESD diodes on the pins.
    #2
    mbrowning
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/10/10 08:49:01 (permalink)
    +5 (5)
    10f200 certainly has ESD diodes.
     
    PK4 has been known to damage old devices with 12V programming. The "fix" is apparently to add a 100ohm resistor in the MCLR line from the PK4. I don't use PK4 or old devices, so no personal experience.
    #3
    Howard Long
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/10/10 08:52:51 (permalink)
    +2 (2)
    mbrowning
    10f200 certainly has ESD diodes.
     
    PK4 has been known to damage old devices with 12V programming. The "fix" is apparently to add a 100ohm resistor in the MCLR line from the PK4. I don't use PK4 or old devices, so no personal experience.



    And the ICD4 also has the same "feature".
    #4
    Blue_Key
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/10/23 23:51:11 (permalink)
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    Great... Thanks for the feedback.
     
    I managed to replace the PIC functionality using discrete circuitery.
    #5
    tdarlic
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/16 14:30:44 (permalink)
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    HI guys,
     
    Any idea how to solve this. I have a project to complete with PIC10F202 and the device fails when I attempt to program it with PicKit3 and PicKit4. With both PicKits device fails short after programming and draws 1A. Out of 10 PIC10F202 i managed to program only 2. I've tried putting 100R and 50R in series with MCLR pin but without sucess. 
    Would older PicKit (say #2) sucessfully program device or?
    Pic10F202 is directly connected to ISCP for test with nothing loading pins and it still destroys the PIC10F202.
     
    Any help is appreciated... 
    #6
    ric
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/16 14:52:22 (permalink)
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    The problem reported above is ONLY with the PK4, not the PK3.
    Likely you have something else going on. Are you using a laptop powered from an AC adaptor with a 2-pin mains plug?
    Do you have any other ground path between your laptop and the board your chip is being programmed on, APART from via the PK3/4 (you should!)
     

    I also post at: PicForum
    Links to useful PIC information: http://picforum.ric323.co...opic.php?f=59&t=15
    NEW USERS: Posting images, links and code - workaround for restrictions.
    To get a useful answer, always state which PIC you are using!
    #7
    NorthGuy
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/16 15:08:44 (permalink)
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    May be you connect it incorrectly? If you connect the programmer's MCLR pin to anything other than PIC's MCLR, this is likely to destroy the PIC.
    #8
    tdarlic
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/16 15:22:07 (permalink)
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    Hi ric
     
    You have a point. I was grounded only trough the PK3/4. I 've tried now to program the device with PK3 while being grounded trough the oscilloscope probe and device still failed. This is the 10th I've burned in a row :-)
    However I have 2 PIC10F202 on the same pcb which is programmed successfully and it works. This intermittency smells of ground problems but I cannot pinpoint it. Is there a way to program this device via serial port?
    #9
    tdarlic
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/16 15:23:58 (permalink)
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    @NorthGuy
    MCLR is connected directly and nothing else is on MCLR. The device is extremely simple. All it does is flashing a LED...
     
    #10
    ric
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/16 15:57:57 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    tdarlic
    Hi ric
     
    You have a point. I was grounded only trough the PK3/4. I 've tried now to program the device with PK3 while being grounded trough the oscilloscope probe and device still failed.

    It is your laptop that needs grounding!
     

    I also post at: PicForum
    Links to useful PIC information: http://picforum.ric323.co...opic.php?f=59&t=15
    NEW USERS: Posting images, links and code - workaround for restrictions.
    To get a useful answer, always state which PIC you are using!
    #11
    acharnley
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/19 14:13:04 (permalink)
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    Falls short after programming... while programming and boot the pins are floating. My guess is you have some pins grounded and set as output. 
    #12
    tdarlic
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/21 14:23:36 (permalink)
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    Hi guys and thanks for the responses, just a short update. I have burned about 20 pcs without finding what's happening. I have grounded everything including the computer and the board and any combination thereof. As I am saying the device fails and I have disconnected everything except the programming pins and Vcc/GND. The device is powered from PK3. I have soldered 100R in series with MCLR connector. After programming this much of them I can say than majority of them did not fail short but just refuses to program successfully. I managed to program some of them only once (maybe two of them) and after trying to program them again a minute after they fail to program again. I tested the same circuit on the breadboard a month ago and it's still working. 
     
    Finally, I gave up on this part and ordered pin compatible ATTiny4. I have already ordered full batch of PCBs after testing this on breadboard and if ATTiny4 does not work I'll be in trouble. I'll try to make a video after NY to show them failing. I might be missing something stupid this was a fake part. 
    #13
    nigelwright7557
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/21 17:55:57 (permalink)
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    I bought a pickit 4 as my older pickit3 wasn't debugging very reliably.
    The pickit 4 was slightly better but died within a week !
    So got a refund and went back to pickit 3.
    There are still loads of pickit 3 on ebay for peanuts.
     
     
     
     
    #14
    Gort2015
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/22 02:48:07 (permalink)
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    Pic 10F is 16+ Years old.  The pdf mentions retention and life-span.
     
    With the PK4 I can write a project to a chip in 4 seconds.
    The PK3 takes at least 40+ seconds.
    post edited by Gort2015 - 2019/12/22 04:08:29

    MPLab X playing up, bug in your code? Nevermind, Star Trek:Discovery will be with us soon.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu1qa8N2ID0
    + ST:Continues, "What Ships are Made for", Q's back.
    #15
    tdarlic
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/22 05:38:56 (permalink)
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    I have most of Microchip programmers gathered trough the years. PK2,3,4 and ICD3,4 and several others. I tried almost all here but not a single one helped me. 
    PK4 is so cheap
    #16
    Gort2015
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/23 03:34:16 (permalink)
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    The 470 ohm resistor in series with MCLR is to reduce the initial current influx.

    MPLab X playing up, bug in your code? Nevermind, Star Trek:Discovery will be with us soon.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu1qa8N2ID0
    + ST:Continues, "What Ships are Made for", Q's back.
    #17
    tdarlic
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/23 04:47:22 (permalink)
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    Gort2015
    The 470 ohm resistor in series with MCLR is to reduce the initial current influx.


    I tried with the 100R and 200R in series with MCLR on PK3 and PK4 but that did not help. I'll try 470R after I complete this project with ATTiny4. I have about 30 pcs PIC10F202 left I'll sacrifice them for science later :-)
    #18
    oliverb
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/23 09:04:22 (permalink)
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    tdarlic
    With both PicKits device fails short after programming and draws 1A.


    That reads like latch-up which can be caused by driving current through protection diodes while the PIC is powered.
     
    How is the PIC being powered and is the programmer VDD properly connected to the PIC VDD?
     
    Regarding the laptop issue I've seen problems with a test jig powered from a small un-earthed "brick", just connecting a scope ground was enough to reset a LCD. Though the PIC was unaffected in that case.
    #19
    tdarlic
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    Re: PIC10F devices dies 2019/12/23 09:33:39 (permalink)
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    oliverb
    tdarlic
    With both PicKits device fails short after programming and draws 1A.


    That reads like latch-up which can be caused by driving current through protection diodes while the PIC is powered.
     
    How is the PIC being powered and is the programmer VDD properly connected to the PIC VDD?
     
    Regarding the laptop issue I've seen problems with a test jig powered from a small un-earthed "brick", just connecting a scope ground was enough to reset a LCD. Though the PIC was unaffected in that case.


    I am powering the PIC trough the PK3/4. I tried powering it trough the earthed linear power supply making sure all grounds are at the same potential. 
    I had a same issue with test jig before when connected ungrounded but this is not the same. I manage to program successfully few times but never twice in a row and most of the times second programming bricks the PIC. PK is directly connected. I did a sanity check with two other persons and their laptops. I am leaving this for now and will come back to it after NY. Completing the project with the ATTiny4 and delivering ASAP is now priority but I will write here if I find what went wrong. 
    post edited by tdarlic - 2020/01/08 17:26:19
    #20
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