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buttim
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2019/08/16 13:57:51 (permalink)
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8 pins device identification

Hi everybody.
I need some help from the PIC gurus to identify a (likely) PIC device with 8 pins but marking deleted (see posted picture).
The device appears on a small USB powered LED stick (https://it.aliexpress.com...1.0.0.6a774c4dAbadOs).
I managed to reverse engineer most of the board layout so i believe this is a PIC MCU because of the position of the power inputs. I tried to read the device using a Pickit3 and MPLAB IPE, connecting with a SOIC clamp. This seems to be ok if I specify something like a 12F1508. The read apparently is ok even though the device appears as code protected, so the memory is all 0s.
The real problem happens when i try to write. Very soon a verification error appears. My understanding is that the MCU is actually a PIC but of a different kind. I'm having a hard time finding a complete list of all PIC devices with 8 pins. Apparently the official (Microchip) source lists only the more recent devices, totally ignoring for example the 12F1840 and 12F508.
So, the question is: is there a complete list of all 8 pin PIC devices somewhere? Or better yet some way to understand the device identity using a Pickit3?
Thank you so much for your help. If anyone is interested in the details feel free to ask.

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#1

21 Replies Related Threads

    katela
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 08:49:07 (permalink)
    +2 (2)
    You can try Microchip Advanced part selector, specify all the parameters you need (don't forget to tick the Mature).

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    #2
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 10:46:54 (permalink)
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    Yay! Easier than i thought. Thanks, this will keep me busy for a while. (But I'll be back ;> )
     
    #3
    PStechPaul
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 12:00:54 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    When you connect the PICkit to the device, it should tell you the device code. If you have problems writing to it, there is probably something in the circuitry that interferes with the programming, most likely a load or capacitance on Vpp. You should be able to use a scope to observe the signals. You may need to lift one or more of the leads off the board, or remove components, to program in-circuit.

     
    #4
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 17:03:58 (permalink)
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    Thanks, that definitely makes sense. Does every PIC have an internal ID or just the more recent ones?
    #5
    ric
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 17:06:33 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    Most do, but some older 8 pin parts did not.
    What messages do you see when the programmer connects to the device?
    Possibly it's just reading all zeroes anyway, and the reports of "code protection" etc. are just spurious because of that.
     

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    #6
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 17:16:49 (permalink)
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    A notable thing it says is the warning "Target has invalid calibration data". Sometimes it says 0x00 other 0x30 or 0x3F. I'm a bit scared by having to lift pins, even if the device costs less than 2$... you know, that's how I am...
     
    In case you're curious this is what I could understand of the board (see picture)
     
     

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    #7
    newfound
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 17:30:22 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    I have doubts that this is a "midrange" or enhanced midrange PIC due to the inconsistent values you are reading.  Try reading the part as a baseline part like the 12F508. On baseline pics the lowest 0x40 locations are not code protected so you should see some code at the reset vector (0x0000) there if it is indeed a baseline part. If that seems to work out then report what you read back here as many of us could offer further suggestions for what to do next to narrow it down. If it turns out to be a baseline part getting an exact identification may not be possible as these parts have no Device ID but, as they tend to program the same this may not be an issue. 
    #8
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/19 17:47:17 (permalink)
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    Thanks for your help. I will try tomorrow since the clamp got off of the IC and doesn't want to stick to it anymore.
    I think I'd better solder 5 wires somehow
    #9
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 09:51:03 (permalink)
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    Ok. I soldered the wires but no, the whole memory reads as 0, so this seems a load conflict as you suggested.
    Instead of lifting the MCU pins i'd better desolder the resistor attached to ICSPDAT and if necessary ICSPCLICK (on the board the resistors lead to 2 MOSFETs used to drive the red and green parts of the RGB LED)
     
    #10
    Antipodean
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 11:05:40 (permalink)
    +2 (2)
    Personally I doubt this is a PIC chip at all. I am not aware of any 8 pin USB interface chips in the PIC range, bu there may be in the Atmel range. You are probably better off checking those chips on the Microchip selector.
     
     

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    Alan
    #11
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 11:30:36 (permalink)
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    No way, even desoldering the 2 resistors I can't read the chip. Might even not be a PIC. Very strange that the protocol does not incur in any error though. Update board schematic in the picture

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    #12
    mpgmike
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 11:50:48 (permalink)
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    As mentioned in post #11, the smallest PIC I'm aware of that's USB compatible is 14 pins.

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    #13
    PStechPaul
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 12:00:15 (permalink)
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    It is possible to implement low speed USB on an 8 pin AVR ATtiny85:
     
    https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/13665/what-is-the-simplest-and-cheapest-way-to-interface-with-usb
     
    https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/9147
     

    It might help to trace the USB connections on your board.

     
    #14
    mbrowning
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 12:22:16 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    I'm pretty sure this is USB powered, not a USB device. From the description
    1,Suitable for all USB ports.
    2,Intelligent music control - lighting changes color with music
    3,Finger touch can change the color of the light
    4,The color of the light can be changed by itself.
    5,The lights have 7 colors
    It's shown plugged into a car USB, so it's got to be just power.
    The picture shows a microphone (I had wondered what that can is) for the "changes color with music" feature. The metal end is a touch sensor.
    With that info, I think it has to have an ADC so that limits the number of 8 pin devices a little.

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    #15
    1and0
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 12:24:10 (permalink)
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    Just FYI.  It is possible to implement a low-speed software USB with an 8-pin PIC device, such as 12F675, 12F629, 12F683, etc. LoL: LoL
    #16
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/20 12:29:49 (permalink)
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    I confirm: USB is for powering only. In any case the MCU would not have free pins for that, R G B mike and touch are taking 5 pins already.
     
    No luck even desoldering 3 resistors. I will have to give up.
     
    Thanks all you guys for the interesting chat nonetheless!
    #17
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/23 16:56:05 (permalink)
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    UPDATE: I finally desoldered the whole IC, just to find it has markings on the belly!
    The marking reads 13D01852, but I can't find any information about it.

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    #18
    PStechPaul
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/23 22:55:48 (permalink)
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    A search found this:
     
    http://www.smdmark.com/en-US/search/code?id=13D01852
     
    But it did not provide any useful info for this IC.
     
    Why were you trying to read and program this device? Did you plan to add or change functionality? You can probably replace it with an 8 pin PIC and write a program to access the microphone and LEDs, but it might take quite some effort.

     
    #19
    buttim
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    Re: 8 pins device identification 2019/08/24 03:40:20 (permalink)
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    I stumbled on that page too, but if you look well it just says "no data found". The remaining info is just boilerplate that gets added whatever the search words.
     
    I am just curious but I have one possible application: building light Pois.
     
    You are right on substituting a PIC, but that would be a bit too difficult for me now. If I know that the original hw & sw can do it I can at least try, otherwise it's a bit too much as a starting project.
     
    I even tried to program the chip now that I'm sure no parts on the board can make conflicts but with no success. Either i fried it or it is indeed not a PIC.
    #20
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