• AVR Freaks

Hot!MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK4?

Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Author
JPortici
Super Member
  • Total Posts : 692
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2012/11/17 06:27:45
  • Location: Grappaland
  • Status: online
2018/08/20 00:31:14 (permalink)
0

MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK4?

The release notes of X 5.05 mentions MPLAB Snap, which appears to be a dumbed-down version of the PK4, unable to provide power for the target board and unable to do high-voltage programming.
 
being unable to do HVP.. okay-ish.. but no power to the target? really? i don't know how many cents you're going to save but whatever.
 
To be honest i hoped it would be a much, much smaller chip + minimal circuit that was going to replace the PKOB
And i can't find an info on price yet, maybe the price is so low that no complaints will be possible
 
then in the release document for the MPLAB Snap (http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/MPLAB%20Snap%20In-Circuit%20Debugger%20IS%20DS50002787A.pdf) Table 1-1 features comparison list "Pay-Per-Feature" as available for the PICKIT4.
 
What does it mean exactly?
post edited by JPortici - 2018/08/20 00:33:58
#1

25 Replies Related Threads

    qɥb
    Monolothic Member
    • Total Posts : 3332
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2017/09/09 05:07:30
    • Location: Jupiter
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 02:40:32 (permalink)
    0
    Jack_M
    To be honest i hoped it would be a much, much smaller chip + minimal circuit that was going to replace the PKOB

    I think you're probably right on the money there.
     
    Table 1-1 features comparison list "Pay-Per-Feature" as available for the PICKIT4.
    What does it mean exactly?

    Good question.
    My guess is it may have a way of supporting using PTG in a way where customers can pay you to get more firmware features, but I could be way off track :)
     

    This forum is mis-configured so it only works correctly if you access it via https protocol.
    The Microchip website links to it using http protocol. Will they ever catch on?
    PicForum "it just works"
    #2
    JPortici
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 692
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/11/17 06:27:45
    • Location: Grappaland
    • Status: online
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 02:54:18 (permalink)
    0
    qɥb
    I think you're probably right on the money there.

     
    this is the SNAP

     
    to be honest i was thinking something much smaller, size simillar to those bluethooth modules

    Attached Image(s)

    #3
    Jerry Messina
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 389
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2003/11/07 12:35:12
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 03:01:59 (permalink)
    5 (2)
    And i can't find an info on price yet

    $14.95
     
    https://www.microchipdirect.com/product/search/all/PG164100
     
    #4
    JPortici
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 692
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/11/17 06:27:45
    • Location: Grappaland
    • Status: online
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 03:56:22 (permalink)
    0
    coolsies :) unfortunately a product page didn't show up in google, so i didn't even think of checking on direct.
    I like the price tag on this one. As i suspected, the price is so low that no complaints will be possible. Apparently it can or will do JTAG and AVR, too
    #5
    Jerry Messina
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 389
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2003/11/07 12:35:12
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 06:27:37 (permalink)
    0
     the price is so low that no complaints will be possible

    I don't know about that. 
     
    I agree with you... not being able to power the target at all (especially considering the likely user of one of these) just seems like it's inviting a whole new rash of "My SNAP doesn't work" threads.
    #6
    Howard Long
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 676
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2005/04/04 08:50:32
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 07:48:11 (permalink)
    0
    Lack of HVP is probably just as dangerous: if it's you're only programmer debugger, it's far to easy to disable LVP and brick your target, at least until you can get hold of an HVP.
    #7
    JPortici
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 692
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/11/17 06:27:45
    • Location: Grappaland
    • Status: online
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 08:10:08 (permalink)
    0
    Is that so? I seem to remember from various programming specifications that HVP is required to change the LVP bit status and new devices come with LVP enabled from factory
     
    e.g. from the PIC16F1823 programming specification (http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41390D.pdf)
     
    Note 1: The LVP bit cannot be programmed to '0' when Programming mode is entered via LVP.

     
    4.2 Low-Voltage Programming (LVP) Mode

    The Low-Voltage Programming mode allows the PIC12(L)F1822 and PIC16(L)F182X devices to be
    programmed using VDD only, without high voltage. When the LVP bit of Configuration Word 2 register
    is set to '1', the low-voltage ICSP programming entry is enabled. To disable the Low-Voltage ICSP mode,
    the LVP bit must be programmed to '0'. This can only be done while in the High-Voltage Entry mode.

     
    Also, the lack of target power is a nuisance. I have the feeling that most people using this super-low-cost programmer/debugger will use it with 5V, maybe 3V3, offering AT LEAST usb VBUS and the programmer's 3V3 could have been enough.
    But i still welcome this new thing with wide open arms. :) wish i had it while in high school.. i had to make do with pickit 3 clones.. school had only PK2 BUT is it so different than say an st-link? i remember needing the target voltage for those as well.
     
    I'm still more concerned by the pay-per-feature thing..
    post edited by JPortici - 2018/08/20 08:19:37
    #8
    Larry.Standage
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 901
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2011/12/30 09:50:47
    • Location: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 09:25:06 (permalink)
    4 (1)
    PKOB replacement is under way, but how "small" will depend on the target and the interface to the target.
     
    As for PTG, that is in the works, but it would not be a charge for a new feature. We just haven't implemented it yet, so we opted to release it and provide PTG as a future feature.
     
    Power to target isn't much on PK4 anyway, only about 50 mA. You're still going to have to get ICD4 in order to provide up to 1 A to the target.
    #9
    Jerry Messina
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 389
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2003/11/07 12:35:12
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 10:02:31 (permalink)
    0
    You're still going to have to get ICD4 in order to provide up to 1 A to the target

    Along with your external power supply to the ICD4, so it's not much different really than requiring the target to have external power. That was a real letdown compared to the ICD3.
     
    I have quite a number of designs where 50mA is more than enough to get a board programmed and limping along.
    It's really handy for those small assys, or where you're just trying things out.
     
     
    #10
    Antipodean
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 1708
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2008/12/09 10:19:08
    • Location: Didcot, United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 10:07:18 (permalink)
    0
    Jack_M
    Is that so? I seem to remember from various programming specifications that HVP is required to change the LVP bit status and new devices come with LVP enabled from factory
     
    e.g. from the PIC16F1823 programming specification 



    I haven't checked, but does that device actually take the MCLR line above VDD to go into programming mode? A lot of newer devices seem to only go about half a volt above VDD to enter programming mode, and I suspect the Snap would be capable of that. It seems the devices that it won't program are the older ones that required 9-13V on MCLR to enter HVP mode.
     
     

    Do not use my alias in your message body when replying, your message will disappear ...

    Alan
    #11
    Antipodean
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 1708
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2008/12/09 10:19:08
    • Location: Didcot, United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 10:10:00 (permalink)
    0
    Jerry Messina
    And i can't find an info on price yet

    $14.95
    https://www.microchipdirect.com/product/search/all/PG164100

     
    Hmm, at GBP11.95, and 5,400+ in stock might have to look seriously at that. Ideal second programmer for doing dual core dsPics ... maybe get two, as they seem to be real high speed beasties that could even beat the Real Ice for speed.
     
     

    Do not use my alias in your message body when replying, your message will disappear ...

    Alan
    #12
    JPortici
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 692
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/11/17 06:27:45
    • Location: Grappaland
    • Status: online
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 11:22:51 (permalink)
    0
    Larry.StandagePKOB replacement is under way, but how "small" will depend on the target and the interface to the target.

    that's nice to hear, altough i consider it to be finally mature. Man that thing was really unstable until a year ago or so..
     
    As for PTG, that is in the works, but it would not be a charge for a new feature. We just haven't implemented it yet, so we opted to release it and provide PTG as a future feature.

    Glad to hear it's not going to be available as a "separate purchase"... but what is going to be then?
     
    Anyway, what's the deal with PTG? why it's taking so long to implement? i thought it would just be a matter of porting the code... and what's in there? store the target binary in the PK and implement the programming sequence as per the programming specification.
    sorry if it sounds naive, but i just don't understand why it's taking so long (and why part support is still what it is...)
     
    Power to target isn't much on PK4 anyway, only about 50 mA. You're still going to have to get ICD4 in order to 1A



    50 whole milliamps? if one of my boards is consuming this much then i'm doing something very wrong :D
    #13
    JPortici
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 692
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/11/17 06:27:45
    • Location: Grappaland
    • Status: online
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 11:35:36 (permalink)
    0
    The username that must not be written
    I haven't checked, but does that device actually take the MCLR line above VDD to go into programming mode? A lot of newer devices seem to only go about half a volt above VDD to enter programming mode, and I suspect the Snap would be capable of that. It seems the devices that it won't program are the older ones that required 9-13V on MCLR to enter HVP mode.




    To enter programming mode with LVP enabled you have to pull MCLR low then send through PGC/PGD the init sequence (MCHP). Then, go on programming as usual.
    I recently implemented a "programmer to go" for a project where there is a second smaller PIC so that i don't have to program two MCUs per board. it also helps with updates
    From what i gather this methos is shared across all modern PIC(16), those with 4 numbers and newer. Don't know about other product families (18, dsPIC) but it should be something simillar. I seem to remember that you have to do the same with JTAG to enter programming mode in PIC32MZ.. Not sure, check the document.
     
    If i had to make a guess i would say that the SNAP then will not support the PICs without LVP and the PICs with LVP but that needs to use the PGM pin.
    #14
    Howard Long
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 676
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2005/04/04 08:50:32
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/20 13:13:25 (permalink)
    0
    Jack_M
    Is that so? I seem to remember from various programming specifications that HVP is required to change the LVP bit status and new devices come with LVP enabled from factory

     
    Hmm, thinking back you may well be right: I remember having this problem on a Curiosity board, but thinking about it, it's entirely likely I'd already programmed the chip with a high voltage programmer beforehand.
     
    #15
    Antipodean
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 1708
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2008/12/09 10:19:08
    • Location: Didcot, United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/21 02:55:49 (permalink)
    0
    Jack_M
    (http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/MPLAB%20Snap%20In-Circuit%20Debugger%20IS%20DS50002787A.pdf) Table 1-1 features comparison list "Pay-Per-Feature" as available for the PICKIT4.
     
    What does it mean exactly?



    Probably the same sort of features as are currently 'Pay per Feature' for the Real Ice, such as the remote USB debug feature.
     

    Do not use my alias in your message body when replying, your message will disappear ...

    Alan
    #16
    Larry.Standage
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 901
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2011/12/30 09:50:47
    • Location: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/29 10:49:06 (permalink)
    4.5 (2)
    grin: grin
    Providing power to targets was actually one of those things that nobody else, to my knowledge, does. It started back with, IIRC, PICkit 2, or ICD 2, and we've carried it ever since. It isn't easy, especially since we have to provide a wide range of supply voltages, in addition to a wide range of programming voltages for parts that require high-voltage on VPP in order to program.
     
    There were some key changes in how the programmers work when we went to the Gen 4 tools. In essence, the tools actually run scripts that execute primitives on the tools, functions for SWD, DebugWire, ICSP, and other protocols. This prevented the issues with Gen 3, where it had to have something programmed into it every time you changed part families. As someone who used to bounce between PIC32 devices, it was very annoying.
     
    The scripts themselves don't exist on the tool, but rather within the IDE, and the IDE downloads each script to execute, depending on what is happening (DeviceID, Erase, Program, Verify, etc.). To support PTG, we have to figure out what has to be placed on the SD Card, what the script execution looks like, and then implement it in the firmware. Also, we're having to backfill support for existing parts, since not all parts are supported yet with the Gen 4 tools, and support new parts. So it's all a balancing act of features we would like to implement, versus features you need to have.
    #17
    dan1138
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 3120
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2007/02/21 23:04:16
    • Location: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/29 14:26:36 (permalink)
    0
    Larry.Standage
    Providing power to targets was actually one of those things that nobody else, to my knowledge, does.

    To help you expand your knowledge the E1 programmer form Renesas, the MSP430-FET from Texas Instruments both will supply power to the target device.
     
    As you do not know about these perhaps you have never taken a serious look at the low cost tools offered by other vendors of microcontrollers.
    #18
    JPortici
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 692
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/11/17 06:27:45
    • Location: Grappaland
    • Status: online
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/30 02:48:19 (permalink)
    0
    I love clear answers :) Thanks Larry for your explanation, makes sense it will take some time (and if it was already out there in the forum, my apologies as i never saw it)
     
    Please take my suggestion from above: If i had to speculate, i would say that many of the end users of the snap (which is a low cost tool to be on the same league of chinese clones and other companies low cost tools) will be hobbyists or makers of the arduino types which won't probably use anything else than 5V and 3V3 because that's their ecosystem.
    In the SNAP 5V-ish and 3V3 are already available on the board. Maybe just a jumper or a blob of solder to select target/5V-usb/3V3 may be added in a future release :)
     
    #19
    steverap
    Super Member
    • Total Posts : 152
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2003/11/07 12:38:54
    • Location: San Jose, CA, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: MPLABX 5.05 adds support to a stripped-down PK4. what's up with Pay-Per-Feature for PK 2018/08/30 08:46:51 (permalink)
    0
    Microchip gave out free Snaps at the Masters conference in Phoenix last week. I haven't had the chance to play with mine yet...
     
    -Steve
    #20
    Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
    Jump to:
    © 2019 APG vNext Commercial Version 4.5