Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)?

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rmteo
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2011/11/13 10:28:37 (permalink)
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Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)?

MAPS has a button for USB but does not specify speed.
 

Why pay for overpriced toys when you can have
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    Peter Camilleri
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 10:39:47 (permalink)
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    No PICs go faster than 12Mbits/second.

    Best regards; Peter Camilleri

    #2
    Anguel
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 15:22:11 (permalink)
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    Right, Full-Speed is max, no Hi-Speed.
    #3
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 17:54:47 (permalink)
    +2 (1)
    rmteo

    Thanks for the confirmation.  MCHP has a long ways to go to keep up with the competition.
     


    Microchip simply are not competing at all at the higher end that could make use of Hi-Speed USB and make no pretense about it. Hi-Speed USB is useless to add when the bottle neck is the CPU not the USB speed.


    Perhaps if/when microchip release PIC32s that run at hundreds of MIPS that compete with the higher end ARM devices then it would make sense to add Hi-Speed USB.

    Even if there was Hi-Speed USB on the comparable ARM CM0 my money would be on the PIC32 having greater USB throughput MHz for MHz.


    #4
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 18:42:42 (permalink)
    +2 (1)
    rmteo

    High-end PIC32s and low end ARMS already run at hundreds of MIPs.  Higher-end ARMs run at thousands of MIPs.
     


    What high end PIC32 currently runs at hundreds of MIPs???
    #5
    rmteo
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 19:30:52 (permalink)
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    The fastest PIC18 at 16MHz = 1.59 CoreMarks = 16MIPs
    A PIC32 at 80MHz = 183 CoreMarks = ??? MIPs
     

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    #6
    jtemples
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 19:49:21 (permalink)
    +2 (1)
    MIPS means "million instructions per second". It is not a benchmark, and has nothing to do with CoreMarks. An 80 MHz PIC32 is 80 MIPS.
    #7
    rmteo
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 20:05:47 (permalink)
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    jtemples

    MIPS means "million instructions per second". It is not a benchmark, and has nothing to do with CoreMarks. An 80 MHz PIC32 is 80 MIPS.

    Exactly and that is why I put the ???.  MIPs is a totally meaningless marketing term meant only to impress the uninitiated.  However, with this statement, the poster is implying that MIPs is somehow related to the performance of the device.
     
    newfound
    Perhaps if/when microchip release PIC32s that run at hundreds of MIPS that compete with the higher end ARM devices then it would make sense to add Hi-Speed USB.

     

    Why pay for overpriced toys when you can have
    professional grade tools for FREE!!! mr greenmr green
    #8
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 20:29:23 (permalink)
    +2 (1)
    rmteo

    jtemples

    MIPS means "million instructions per second". It is not a benchmark, and has nothing to do with CoreMarks. An 80 MHz PIC32 is 80 MIPS.

    Exactly and that is why I put the ???.  MIPs is a totally meaningless marketing term meant only to impress the uninitiated.  However, with this statement, the poster is implying that MIPs is somehow related to the performance of the device.
     
    newfound
    Perhaps if/when microchip release PIC32s that run at hundreds of MIPS that compete with the higher end ARM devices then it would make sense to add Hi-Speed USB.

     


    Now this is just getting silly. The FACT is the PIC32 run at a MAX of 80 MIPs. You claim that there are some that run at hundreds of MIPs. Please name them...

    Now unless you are a complete idiot the number of MIPs a PIC32 runs at is a PERFECTLY VALID benchmark of the "performance of the device" when compared against other members of the same core and I have NOT ANYWHERE IMPLIED differently.


    #9
    rmteo
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/13 20:42:26 (permalink)
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    newfound

    Now unless you are a complete idiot the number of MIPs a PIC32 runs at is a PERFECTLY VALID benchmark of the "performance of the device" when compared against other members of the same core and I have NOT ANYWHERE IMPLIED differently.

    newfound
    Perhaps if/when microchip release PIC32s that run at hundreds of MIPS that compete with the higher end ARM devices then it would make sense to add Hi-Speed USB.

     

    Why pay for overpriced toys when you can have
    professional grade tools for FREE!!! mr greenmr green
    #10
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/14 05:23:34 (permalink)
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    rmteo

    newfound

    Now unless you are a complete idiot the number of MIPs a PIC32 runs at is a PERFECTLY VALID benchmark of the "performance of the device" when compared against other members of the same core and I have NOT ANYWHERE IMPLIED differently.

    newfound
    Perhaps if/when microchip release PIC32s that run at hundreds of MIPS that compete with the higher end ARM devices then it would make sense to add Hi-Speed USB.

     


    Now I don't see anywhere where I mention how many MIPs the ARMs run at.

    If your trying to tell us that the PIC32 will compete against the higher end ARMs without an increase in its current limit of 80MIPs for the PIC32 then those higher end ARMs cannot be so good...

    Oh, but there are PIC32s running at hundreds of MIPS already you say. So which ones are they?

     
    #11
    chinzei
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/15 00:26:31 (permalink)
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    Newfound:

    Perhaps if/when microchip release PIC32s that run at hundreds of MIPS that compete with the higher end ARM devices then it would make sense to add Hi-Speed USB.

    I don't think hundreds of MIPs to saturate High-speed USB bandwidth is not the absolute requirement. For example, USB PIC18 can't saturate Full-speed (FS) bandwidth. It uses 20-30% of bandwidth at most, when the MCU core takes light process of the data flow. But no one says FS USB is too much for PIC18 wink

    Tsuneo
    post edited by chinzei - 2011/11/15 00:27:45
    #12
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/15 02:12:46 (permalink)
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    chinzei

    Newfound:

    Perhaps if/when microchip release PIC32s that run at hundreds of MIPS that compete with the higher end ARM devices then it would make sense to add Hi-Speed USB.

    I don't think hundreds of MIPs to saturate High-speed USB bandwidth is not the absolute requirement. For example, USB PIC18 can't saturate Full-speed (FS) bandwidth. It uses 20-30% of bandwidth at most, when the MCU core takes light process of the data flow. But no one says FS USB is too much for PIC18 wink

    Tsuneo


    Is there anyone saying that it is not enough either? :)

    Of course if we could have high speed and some hardware flags for NAK, PPBI, better support for isochronous support for the same price then I am not going to fight to hard to stop it.


    #13
    Pacer
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/15 06:02:21 (permalink)
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    chinzei
    I don't think hundreds of MIPs to saturate High-speed USB bandwidth is not the absolute requirement. For example, USB PIC18 can't saturate Full-speed (FS) bandwidth. It uses 20-30% of bandwidth at most, when the MCU core takes light process of the data flow. But no one says FS USB is too much for PIC18 wink

    Tsuneo


    I think that this is the point. Many High-Speed capable MCUs do very little interacting with the USB data. Instead they act as a conduit between the USB bus, and a port which is connected to an FPGA capable of processing data at those speeds. The MCU in these cases is little more than glue to hold things together. This part of the market is well catered for.  With Super-Speed this trend is likely to be continued.


    #14
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/15 21:07:20 (permalink)
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    Pacer

    chinzei
    I don't think hundreds of MIPs to saturate High-speed USB bandwidth is not the absolute requirement. For example, USB PIC18 can't saturate Full-speed (FS) bandwidth. It uses 20-30% of bandwidth at most, when the MCU core takes light process of the data flow. But no one says FS USB is too much for PIC18 wink

    Tsuneo


    I think that this is the point. Many High-Speed capable MCUs do very little interacting with the USB data. Instead they act as a conduit between the USB bus, and a port which is connected to an FPGA capable of processing data at those speeds. The MCU in these cases is little more than glue to hold things together. This part of the market is well catered for.  With Super-Speed this trend is likely to be continued.


    Of course this is true but as you say the USB SIE is part of a SoC and is incidental to the MCU which does not even see the USB data stream.  Such a SIE could be controlled by even a 4-bit MCU. You do not even need the MCU for such a USB FIFO and for all intents and purposes, the SIE may as well be built into the FPGA.

    You could just a easily butt these high speed USB FIFOs up to a PIC32 instead of a FPGA. What would that buy you as opposed to using the full speed SIE in the 80MIPs PIC32?

    I cannot see that anyone has given any real argument as to why an 80MIPs PIC32 requires high speed USB. In fact your own point, "This part of the market is well catered for" seems to argue against it and Mr Chinzei's use of a double negative was meant to convey what meaning? That there should be a high speed SIE on the PIC18?



     


    #15
    chinzei
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/16 05:14:53 (permalink)
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    I cannot see that anyone has given any real argument as to why an 80MIPs PIC32 requires high speed USB.
    Are you fully satisfied with the speed of FS USB on PIC32? But others seem not, for instance, "PIC32 USB Device - SD Card reader thoughput woes" http://www.microchip.com/forums/m605726.aspx etc. etc. 80MIPs PIC32 can saturate FS bandwidth easily. Rather, FS USB is the bottleneck of this MCU. When a High-Speed "peripheral" like EZ-USB is attached to this MCU over PMP, you'll see more than 10Mbytes/s throughput. If the HS peripheral would be integrated to the MCU, you could have this speed at your hands without any hustle. Isn't this speed attractive for you? wink Tsuneo
    #16
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/16 07:16:31 (permalink)
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    chinzei

    I cannot see that anyone has given any real argument as to why an 80MIPs PIC32 requires high speed USB.
    Are you fully satisfied with the speed of FS USB on PIC32? But others seem not, for instance, "PIC32 USB Device - SD Card reader thoughput woes" http://www.microchip.com/forums/m605726.aspx etc. etc. 80MIPs PIC32 can saturate FS bandwidth easily. Rather, FS USB is the bottleneck of this MCU. When a High-Speed "peripheral" like EZ-USB is attached to this MCU over PMP, you'll see more than 10Mbytes/s throughput. If the HS peripheral would be integrated to the MCU, you could have this speed at your hands without any hustle. Isn't this speed attractive for you? wink Tsuneo


    Well that is an argument and the first one articulated in this thread.

    I have seen you say previously on this forum that you had only seen 18 transfers per frame and not 19. Have you seen the PIC32 saturate full speed usb?

    Also in the thread you linked to you said:


    I implemented this idea on an ARM chip with 700-800KB/s read and 300KB-400KB/s write on full-speed USB, ordinary 512 bytes/sector SD card. Required buffer size reduces into 256 bytes.
    I believe this idea is applied to USB PICs, too.


    Yet the thread is about someone only getting 280k/s on PIC32. How can you suggest that the problem was the PIC32 saturating the full speed usb in that case?

    Of course 10MB/s would be nice but would you like only 8 machine instructions to handle each byte? I think the stack overhead is more than that.

    Don't get me wrong, of course I would love to have high speed USB on a PIC32 (and SATA 3, full DSP, 1Gig Ram etc, etc) but how much will it cost? I think that microchip have it right and if high speed is not enough then there are other solutions.



    #17
    chinzei
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/16 07:54:31 (permalink)
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    I have seen you say previously on this forum that you had only seen 18 transfers per frame and not 19. Have you seen the PIC32 saturate full speed usb?

    Trivial. It's because of limitation of host side. Recent quad core PCs can drive PIC32 in 19 full-size packets.
     
    Yet the thread is about someone only getting 280k/s on PIC32. How can you suggest that the problem was the PIC32 saturating the full speed usb in that case?

    It's a good example of the limitation of FS USB. Not an example of saturation.
    On HS USB, It's 7 - 8 times faster without any tricky algorithm.
     
    Of course 10MB/s would be nice but would you like only 8 machine instructions to handle each byte?

    PIC32 is, of course, 32bits MCU. You forget 4 times multiplication. wink 10MB/s is a product of DMA.grin
     
    Tsuneo
    #18
    newfound
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/16 08:32:48 (permalink)
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    chinzei

    It's a good example of the limitation of FS USB. Not an example of saturation.
    On HS USB, It's 7 - 8 times faster without any tricky algorithm.
     
    PIC32 is, of course, 32bits MCU. You forget 4 times multiplication. wink 10MB/s is a product of DMA.grin
     
    Tsuneo



    First point (snipped) is interesting and I do not doubt you.

    Second point. You got much higher bandwidth with FS USB. Tricky algorithm is the price you pay for lower cost silicon.

    Third point. Silly me, I must of missed the SIMD extended instruction set. ;)

    But I agree with you. After all, I am trying to put a Ferrari F1 engine in my girlfriends VW bettle for the same cost as normal engine. :)




    #19
    threedog
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    Re:Are there PICs that support High-Speed USB (480 MBits/s)? 2011/11/16 09:41:17 (permalink)
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    There are very few low cost microcontrollers with High Speed USB.  The Phy tends to be complicated.  There are a few ARM offerings but most are on high end ARM9 or series A Cortex (and a few old 7TDMI not recommended for new designs).  This is at the $30 - $40 price point when one adds CPU, external RAM, and FLASH. (and 4 to 6 layer board to meet RFI/EMI/regulatory)

    It is not apples to apples at that price point.

    Atmel does have the SAM3U but last I knew they were in the third year of "samples" and yet to ship these.
    #20
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